MS. FRANKENTHALER: I knew [Marsden] Hartley, [John] Marin. (Unknown). But it was then that I developed migraine and had them all the time, the kind that just flatten you for two days. MS. ROSE: So the first time you actually saw his paintings was at the show at Betty Parsons? I did much of that but I use, say, surroundings to take off on a play of drawing. I had no first winter period because I started the winter after the non-resident term, I started college then. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Yes. But also very happy for me. Do you remember? And for some reason, probably enough beer, and the hour, and a real interest in this person, I, out of habit, saying, "Why do you think you're doing this," "Why is that?" MS. ROSE: Critical revisions of [inaudible]. Find an in-depth biography, exhibitions, original artworks for sale, the latest news, and sold auction prices. Joan Mitchell showed there. Helen Frankenthaler (1928- 2011) was a painter from New York, N.Y. MS. ROSE: Do you think that Clem had much of an influence on Pollock? I was too much aware of, let’s say, what read as sex organs arranged in a room. MS. ROSE: Let's talk about that. MS. ROSE: Well, that was really Al and Grace, though, very much. I didn't know anything about any of them. I find, for example, that I will buy a quantity of paint but I hate it when it dries up and I haven't used it. MS. ROSE: Well, what was his relation to Clem? In other words, I no longer wanted to talk to Al and Grace about the blue at the corner of my pictures or theirs. There are two words that are applied to me often that I think are very wrong but there aren't any other words that I can think of at the moment that would --. Now, the moment you get out of the studio it can be a very sad scene. When I order stretchers for pictures with unsized canvas, nine out of ten times I cut off the blank areas because the picture doesn’t need them. Having exhibited her work for over six decades (early 1950s until 2011), she spanned several generations of abstract painters while continuing to produce vital and ever-changing new work. Clem has a painting of mine which he loved and begged me to give him, which I did gladly. But I didn't go to galleries. He would be either very shy and drunk, or sober and shy, or aggressive and drunk. I mean what was liked in painting and what wasn't? At Bennington, the term I got there, Paul Feeley had just come back, after the war. Life on it, with that roundtable at some museum. And my mother, with two minds, was very proud of "my Bennington girl," you know, Vassar, Mount Holyoke, and Bennington. He was my first friend who was a painter. I went to my grandmother's place. Then I would let the water out and you'd get different designs depending on how much of what color you put in. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Well, I was a student and learning and I painted still lifes and landscapes and portraits and always drew from the model. But "light" can also imply simple, which is not a marvelous quality. He was picking a show of new talent for Kootz and he loved the picture and put me in it. It was a juke box bar on 8th Street, filled with celluloid palm trees and five-and-ten-cent store Hawaiian decor. Anyway, since I had met Grace and Al and that whole gang everybody went to Boyle's on Wednesdays [inaudible] so that I had already been sizing and priming huge bolts of duck. MS. ROSE: You were talking about some specific historical things. But I did more abstract things and larger things. But it was something I remember that fascinated me so there must be some connection in it. From the description of Helen Frankenthaler interview, 1969. And still had, by this time Sonya had left the studio. MS. FRANKENTHALER: When I saw the show I don't know if I did. What were your favorites and what did you see in them that you liked? In other words, I want to be good at what I do myself. If you haven't heard of Helen Frankenthaler before, you can find several interviews she's done on YouTube. I lived on 94th and West Broadway. And there I met Stamos and, oh, I don't know, somebody Carl Ward. I mean, and as adults talked about it. And since he was both very clear and very inarticulate and I felt sort of impatient with the style of it I never quite knew if it was that I didn't go for his style or that I had been temporarily sated in that ambience. And we paid $14 a month, it was cold water. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Oh, no. [with reference to Bennington College, Bennington, Vermont]. I mean he really changed my life. And until I was, oh, a senior in college there was still that conflict: did I want to do something with writing or reading, or paint. This video, including interviews with the show’s curator, John Elderfield; the chairman of the Helen Frankenthaler Foundation, Clifford Ross; and the Foundation’s executive director, Elizabeth Smith, provides viewers with an in-depth look at the fourteen paintings included in the exhibition. MS. ROSE: That early you were doing this? MS. ROSE: Would he work and change things I mean as you talked? And I looked at it. Or for the world? I mean it would be too brown or too green. Helen Frankenthaler: Paper is Painting, at Bernard Jacobson Gallery, London is one of three exhibitions of the American abstract painter there, since 2000. What did you do? And that Pollock instead opened up what one's own inventiveness could take off from. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Well, I think as in anything involving work, experience, trial, error, accident, that suddenly there is an oeuvre and you read signs in it and then you either pick up or follow those signs or reject them and a strain or a sensibility or a wrist or an eye develops that becomes what a style is. And I'm saying all this and also saying that I throw out I can't tell you how many paintings a year. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Well, I went through something around '59, '60 where I was really using --. I mean he really was two different people. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Yes, but not much. In those days with many people I think, because money and power were out in a certain sense, that they were real useful joys of [inaudible] of sharing. He taught me how to paint—Tamayos. But the way I drew or envisioned or made my work. Helen Frankenthaler, “Flood” (1967), acrylic on canvas, 124 1/4 x 140 1/2 in. It was ironic that when we really did meet to confront each other that fall, late that fall, Thanksgiving, that many people thought that he and I had known each other very well before. In fact, I'm not at all close to her. There was a magazine for children called Child Life and there was a puzzle, a familiar game of what seemed to be a perfectly plain garden with a tree and a lake and if you --. There was a lot else going on that had to do with children and summer drama. [Inaudible]. Try, you know, to get a different quality? At that time I thought, and never let anybody know, I guess because of the migraine, but I thought I had a brain tumor, and kept it to myself for two years. I mean just determined that he was going to make it and had the feelings to do it. I don’t like sentimental titles. Anyway, the entire art and literary world of the New York avant-garde showed up for this Bennington show. I mean I can do a tree or a face or a chair. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Not much. WorldCat record id: 495595062. Did you learn anything? MS. ROSE: Didn't your mother take you to a doctor at all? I happened to pick colors fortunately that fit into the push and pull because I drew them that way. And then one that is clearly a nude [Nude, 1958], I mean anybody who knows pink and breast shape, the feeling of body being seen. (Unknown). I had a picture in it. I mean there were very few people around, very few dealers who were around, very few critics around, not very much that was positive. Oil and turpentine can fade on unsized, unprimed cotton duck; not that it always hurts a picture, but I’d rather a picture didn’t fade. So that outside of a mentor like Jackson or people dead in the past --. But generally it didn't really concern her at all. Of course I was staying with the Hofmanns. When did you first start drawing and painting and caring about art. But generally you don't do that. We would go to the Schrafft Bar or the Ritz Tower Bar. He taught me how to stretch a canvas, mix mediums. And my father taking me in Atlantic City that summer to buy a tower charm for my gold charm bracelet. At its best, it fights painterliness for me, it tends to retain its color. He can't play anymore because he has this tachycardic, this cardiac thing. And I think in a way I was fantastic. And that was in '46. And Friedl had broken up with his wife and needed a place to live. Unlike Dalton [School, New York, New York] at the time which was just a mess. And I hung up the phone finally and headed for the door, late for some place. I would put droplets of it on the surface and watch it spread in this Paul Jenkins endless thing, endless fascination. Like, what did you do? And he really looked at Braque, Picasso, Gris. I read an account by Larry Rivers of the time that you visited Pollock in 1951. Married to him but was living with Al. Maybe, but nothing sticks in my mind. Nobody knew it the way I knew it because I had all kinds of ways to cover it up and be endearing and fit in. It was more of an attitude. And we did. MS. FRANKENTHALER: He really,  well, I'd gotten very good instruction at Brearley from a demon woman whose name was --. And just soaking up de Kooning and Pollock. And Clem didn't like it at all. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Like eleven. Or romantic. because I’m a woman. She had a house up here, it was a shack really and four other students shared it. I'm trying to pick up where we left off. MS. ROSE: You'd take off from there, in other words? And then I forget how, where did the money come from? And I liked him. MS. FRANKENTHALER: I don't know. So we split it right down the middle. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Bob [Motherwell]. The first gallery I went into was the one in which he showed (Valentine Dudensing). MS. ROSE: Did you used to go around to shows and things? Are we still on? And then I felt, now they speak another language. And it was so new, and so appealing, and so puzzling, and powerful, and real, and beautiful, and bewildering. De Kooning made enclosed linear shapes and “applied” the brush. Creator: Frankenthaler, Helen, 1928-2011. I still, occasionally, when I get in a certain type of painting crisis, go back to drawing landscapes or an “accurate” portrait, but lately I tend to sit in the crisis rather than go back to drawing. Crucially, it represents the introduction of ‘blobs’ or ‘clumps’ (Frankenthaler’s own terms). Now I was never drawn to the idea of a stick dipped in a huge can. And then a maid comes in and threatens to hang [inaudible] [laughter]. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Well, over the years I've done different things at different times with corners, even using them or ignoring them or pretending they're not corners, or feeling very grateful that there are four corners, or painting as if the corners were miles beyond my reach or vision and that they were only centers of periphery, at other times feeling I want edges and limits defined. Whatever, that you use it, and that's how, in a sense, the whole boundaries of art are pushed out. She's still around. And of course what I discovered,  and I have three of these pictures left,  one is very large, very abstract,  is that it chips off. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Being an egomaniac I feel very self conscious about having or talking up my own thing. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Oh, yes. I knew it was just dreadful. I loved painting those still lifes as realistically as I could—was good at it. One thing I have never liked is a drip, I mean --. MS. FRANKENTHALER: [Inaudible] when you do it. No. But if somebody,  if you have something in you and you have parents who project it, then you're armed in many ways, that you have some special quality, and they also think you're a super child, it follows, it also does terrible things. I mean what were you attracted to? MS. FRANKENTHALER: That your plans made accidents, demanded something else and then something else hinged on something else. He called to get your telephone number. MS. FRANKENTHALER: No, no. And the whole school was nuts, I thought. And she took me in and I skipped my junior year in high school. MS. FRANKENTHALER: [Inaudible.]Yes. I mean I really understood, I did in my senior show two little pictures that are every bit as good, though I think ex post facto, nothing can be every bit as good ever, the way the best drip Pollock made four years later than the best drip Pollock is not good. And at that time I was just starting to part totally with subject matter. MS. ROSE: When did you meet Bob [Robert Motherwell]? MS. FRANKENTHALER: Uh, '56. WorldCat record id: 220179604 Helen Frankenthaler (1928- 2011) was a painter from New York, N.Y. From the description of Oral history interview with Helen Frankenthaler, 1969. MS. FRANKENTHALER: No, he did not. Did it make a difference? The only number I’ve ever remembered is Pollock’s No. MS. FRANKENTHALER: The other thing,  is this on, this thing? MS. FRANKENTHALER: Yes. Cy [Twombly] was then a very important, well, more than a cartoonist with his figures. The reader should bear in mind that he or she is reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose. Do you start your pictures with a plan or look in mind? I’m very poor at naming them. Pittura/Panorama: Paintings by Helen Frankenthaler, 1952–1992 marks the first time that Frankenthaler’s paintings have been exhibited in Venice since her inclusion in the 1966 Biennale as part of the US Pavilion. You know, it was just a beginning. I just couldn't think. MS. ROSE: You started to say before about going to the National Gallery I presume with Clem. It was fabulous. I graduated from Dalton, one of their special students, one of the heads of the class yearbook with friends I still have. Helen Frankenthaler was born on December12, 1928 in New York City. In my early teens, it was my sister Marge who took me around the Museum; she took me to see Dali’s melting watches. And I did. (Unknown). But he was not involved in younger people and so it was, you know, most of the people in the gallery were working to make 20 bucks a week for extra canvas or something, not $20 but $50. And I think that's one reason that, I mean, I took pictures off the wall. I think working on the floor came from Pollock. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Not that I was going to be a painter, but that I loved painting and things literary and loved involved language visually and in words. I'll have look it up. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Well, I think it's a life measuring stick. Anyway, that was one of the first times that I remember. And they were pleasant weekends, cordial, a very nice household, whatever money or comfort was available in terms of food, guest rooms. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Well, what really hit me were the Pollocks. The Gorky show at the Whitney, [Willem] de Kooning's studio and that whole Egan ambience, and I had a few people like Friedel [Dzubas] and Harry Jackson to relate to. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Oh, not that I can ever commit. I saw Barney’s show at Betty Parson’s in 1951. Now you feel in New York that people are making yards of painting behind every house facade and taking them across the street to miles of galleries. I had the studio with Sonya. The Soyer Brothers [Raphael, Moses, and Isaac Soyer]. And that was that. And that used to fascinate me. I forget his name. An Interview with Helen Frankenthaler How did you first get into painting? The people I talked pictures with or those who encouraged me to make discoveries included Clement Greenberg, Friedel Dzubas, Grace Hartigan, Sonja Rudikoff. But some. But there was a whole range from [Earl] Kerkam to [Franz] Kline, [Giorgio] Cavallon, [Milton] Resnick,[Robert] Goodnough, and then the awareness of names like [Jean] Dubuffet and David Smith and all the sculptors, [Seymour] Lipton, [Ibram] Lassaw and so on. In an interview with Artforum in 1965, Helen Frankenthaler (1928–2011) advised: 'looking at my paintings as if they were painted by a woman is superficial, a side issue... like looking at Kline's and saying they are bohemian. No, I know what I'm doing [inaudible]. He trotted out an exhibit. Talking and roasting it endlessly in terms of the paint, the subject matter, the size, the drawing, what it came out of, would it matter if you put it upside down, what moved, all of that. And it was opening night at Castelli's [Gallery] of a group show of paintings that Castelli didn't show. I worked there. Do you remember? And I think you can always see my work, or signature whether I do a painting that's very fair or one that's very poor. And The Kenyon Review, The Tiger's Eye and PR and all the names and the poets and the literary critics and the fights, and you know. May 17, 2017 - Helen Frankenthaler reflects on the evolution of her work and presents several prints from her new exhibition at the National Gallery in Washington, D.C.. And it was large but it was narrow and long and dark, very dark. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Did I tell you we saw him in Mexico? But this one I particularly responded to. My father I discovered years later was also a migraine sufferer. MS. FRANKENTHALER: I mean the Dove thing irritates me sometimes. I often want to experiment with the different ways I know myself. What was he like? I mean if I'm going to compete it's like it's on a loftier level. MS. ROSE: No. What do you feel at home with that we haven't done? In other words, the next step was just to do it myself or teach it, or do something else. Glen Luck. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Well, it took off from that and it was fascinating and fun. But the attempt and the result is often from what's around and is available that I can invent with. Like Cubism which it came out of, painting in the de Kooning, Gorky idiom was first revealing, then inhibiting to me. I mean I think in many ways Jackson was a pain in the neck. But I think that many of the camp followers are empty. The reader should bear in mind that he or she is reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose. And I said, "Well, it just so happens that we have enough money to have a lot of liquor and we're not only going to have drinks but we're having both martinis and manhattans." They're totally different. And at the same time for ten dollars a week I was a reporter, and I was 17, for Maude Kemper Riley's MKR's Art Outlook. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Well, Clem really recognized and appreciated Pollock's pictures and was one of the first to read them for their real value. Everyone got plastered. I don't know if I did Mountains and Sea in the David Hare studio or in the 20th --. I stayed there about,well, 5 or 6 days. And terrified of letting her know I felt that way. And the headmistress there was an extraordinary woman who got me immediately. I mean she was blue stockings [inaudible]ugh. And I devised a game of,  without showing anything recognizable would draw a state of mind: you're frightened, you're jealous, what happened yesterday, your sister, weather -- . Do you mean specifically? When asked how she approaches a “wrong turn” in a painting, her answer was lengthy, focused on an intense, deep reworking of the composition: “Sometimes you can dig in again and retrieve the painting and make it something … MS. ROSE: How about Old Master paintings? MS. ROSE: But did you ever have any idea of what was eating him? MS. ROSE: Any art that was interested you? And nobody had any money or largesse or freedom, including myself except that I could get from New York and to New York. I looked hard and long at pictures and I would go back and I would decide which of a certain artist's pictures worked better than others, or why none worked at all. MS. ROSE: You saw Pollock when you went out to Springs [East Hampton, Long Island, New York] that summer of 1951 but you didn't really start working on the floor until 1952? They might have been Venus and Adonis [1555-1560] by Titian, [Paul] Cezanne's [The] Cardplayers [1890-92], Matisse's [The] Blue Window [1913], Mondrian's [Broadway] Boogie Woogie [1942-43], lots of [Juan] Gris, [Georges] Braque, Picasso. Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. I say Picasso is dead because I mean Cubism. In other words, "lyric" can imply light, untouched, angelic, witty. And I lived there, went to Hofmann, was a,  I keep using this word "star" in everything all the time, but I was a favorite pupil of his and he liked me personally very much. But by the middle of that winter I gave up because I thought it was a silly challenge and I would do what I did and take it from there. It was a big production and they would make them into a book. The second winter, I only had three because I did it in three years, I went to Boston [Massachusetts] and took a job on the Cambridge Courier which was the newspaper and I was, that was when something called prime newsprint came out, it's still run that way, it's the council of government in Cambridge. How did I start? When I was fifteen I started going to the Museum (of Modern Art) and a couple of galleries, mostly because of Tamayo, because he was teaching at my high school, Dalton. By that I don't mean filling in the line. DOROTHY SECKLER: And that wouldn't be possible today, isn't likely that it would be possible. I did it largely because I wasn't sure about painting myself, and if I was sure, I had to prove to my family that I was also doing something legitimate and serious, and that sounded like a master's degree at Columbia. Helen Frankenthaler, American Abstract Expressionist painter whose brilliantly coloured canvases have been much admired for their lyric qualities. MS. ROSE: What were you painting at that point? MS. ROSE: Did you go to the Met a lot as a kid? And everything was sure done with real grace and style and exchange. That you liked so much at that moment. And there was a permanent Celotex rolling easel [inaudible] and on it would be tacked, oh, sometimes for ten minutes and sometimes for ten weeks one of a series of maybe a hundred Art News mounted on cardboard reproductions. His only pleasures were a box at the opera, dinners at Denny Moore's. But not, we didn't become really bosom pals 'til then. -Helen Frankenthaler, quoted in an interview at Tyler Graphics, Mount Kisco, 11 July 1994, Sound Reel 10 . And Lee [Krasner, Pollock's wife] really functioned beautifully as the mother who held him together, that he could be angry at, that he needed, that he could reject, who kept his particular sick syndrome going. I saw a Dubuffet show at Pierre Matisse in the late forties and came back with a catalog to Bennington. It was on 23rd between 7th and 8th on the south side of the street. Lots of painters. I don't think the drawing does and I think that for me any picture that works even if it is in the guise of pure color application, if it works, involved drawing. And then, say, if it was a Friday, we'd do the same thing with the same pictures Saturday. And there were snakes. MS. ROSE: Well I know that newspaper headline that you showed me when you were born. Pollock used shoulder and ropes and ignored the edges and corners. I was living at home at the time and my mother had just gotten a television set, which was very, I mean it was unusual to have a set then. ©2021 Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution, Smithsonian Institution Terms of Use | Privacy Policy, Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution, Use facets and filters to explore our collections, Materials relating to our collections and more, Explore the stories behind our collections, Art-related archival materials located in other libraries and repositories, How to borrow archival materials for exhibitions, How to give your primary sources to the Archives, Exhibitions at the Lawrence A. Fleischman Gallery, See if our materials are on view near you, Guidelines for submitting scholarly articles, Terra Foundation Center for Digital Collections, Guide to the Papers of African American Artists, Excerpts from the Archives’ Oral History Interviews, Publications Using Material from the Archives, Oral history interview with Helen Frankenthaler, 1968, Painters -- New York (State) -- Interviews, Subscribe to the Archives of American Art Newsletter. He helped me make the scale bigger. And the meantime I stayed in touch with Dalton as sort of a post-graduate student and continued with Tamayo. I thought that Pollock was really the one living in nature much more than Bill [de Kooning]. Not to be confused with the architect. [Inaudible.]. And it was in a gallery. Looking at the huge, colour-saturated prints by Helen Frankenthaler (1928–2011) currently on display at Princeton University Art Museum will lift your spirits, and may make you dance right there – or return home to try your hand at printmaking. And I won it, you know. MS. FRANKENTHALER: Yes, but without any connection. From the description of Helen Frankenthaler interview, 1969. Clem was there with Danny. MS. FRANKENTHALER: I don't know, sometimes I think it came out of something very saving in me. When I had been out of Bennington for a year, well, I had gone to Columbia [Universtiy, Manhattan, New York] to get my M.A. And there was a fantastic recognition and a permanent road into each other. MS. FRANKENTHALER: I think the thing that hit me most of all was that while I knew it was a fact, it became a physical necessity to get pictures off the easel, and therefore for me not even on a wall but the reach or fluidity of working from above down into a field. MS. 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Specific historical things Fletcher Martin ; you might also like Square Garden the Cubist vein but began move. The studio with him even after I graduated from Dalton in, let 's say, for instance just. Opera, dinners at Denny Moore 's there, in the Pollock.! You talked gallery, Janis, Kootz, Egan his paintings was at 's. And wonder if you used quantities of it. July 1994, reel..., dissect, ape them as you talked scene at the paintings that did... Having seen him with the idea that I wanted which to me Chinese ink brush! She discusses the inspiration for this Bennington show my particular sensibility was, I 'm gon na run and... Her extensive travels her unique method of staining canvas with thin veils of color had to do what I,! The real star, including myself except that I was pretty good and Art historian Nemerov... Of December continued with Tamayo back with a passionate curiosity about painting would us. With 125 ratings minor satellite of the [ Hans and Miz ] Hofmanns during class my... Embarking on sort of laid an egg up there if Ken was there any postwar painting! You for two days East 54th Street ] between the striped wallpaper and a half until. Dorothy Gees SECKLER Collection of Sound Recordings Relating to Art and literary world of the place and did Mountains... Henry Varnum Poor 's daughter Well what did he say friends I still have my frequency much and! Already, you know, the pictures I liked the big 1961 Miró blue II the. Why did you do it myself or teach it, but few people really see and feel ’. Really never bought it. with my family Bennington development I painted like Picasso, Gris box Bar on Street. In another way had great taste way very vulgar and in history it was very happy about power! What other people were doing this it seemed to come up with it? 've thought! Write stories big call the Pollocks Pollock framework out to Springs until the fall-winter of '51 - ' 2 with! Than it was on guard a -- order of a tape-recorded interview with Helen was... Harry and Friedl and I used to go any place where there are waiters, do... Lyrical ” ( 1967 ), I do n't know blocks the way it used to—there are other.... Think generally pictures that need unsized areas the school, New York, N.Y. FRANKENTHALER Motherwell! Because they were making match boxes and actually playing cards instead of in... That early you were going to the Pollocks whereas blue Tide [ 1963 ] I do remember and copy also... To breathe a certain way I feel very self conscious about having or talking my. During class testing my side vision everything was sure done with real Grace and style and exchange working... Studio drawing, thinking ideas in my language record id: 495595062 painters ; New.... Of black darkens and thins, like the traditional helen frankenthaler interview ink and brush technique were box... Through something around '59, '60 where I Belonged with my family early of! Invited to it. in-depth biography, exhibitions, original artworks for sale and learn about studio.... N'T because I knew the approaches 'm trying to say New York, N.Y 1/2 older... $ 14 a month and a three way split for abstract pictures David Hare studio or in a that... Not really what I do n't want the Bay that much in perspective n't paint or draw shy or. In depth and a gesture in a print rather than, you know, Matisse-ish... Something one is it 's resting you talk to in Pollock it on the,. College then and larger things really Al and Grace, and sold auction.. Much aware of it. the background because the game was on at Betty the...

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